Ep 125: The Memecoin Narrative with Meltem Demirors

[00:01] Welcome to the Feelings Check-In, a feelings first look at the news of the week. Takes no one asked for on topics everyone's talking about. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. [00:19] Just boys club. - Hello. [00:20] Hey. [00:21] Here we are. [00:22] We have such a treat for you guys today. I mean, just such a treat. Such a treat. We have a big week coming up. We are doing our first ever conference on Tuesday. So in just a few days, we are sold out, which is so exciting. And I'm just like... [00:40] Can't wait for it to be here. So big day, a big week. [00:44] Big pod. [00:46] Big pod. Wow, Meltem is a ride. I didn't know where we were going to [00:51] And just surprises at every turn. [00:53] So on today's podcast, we had Meltem Demirs on. She is an absolute legend in crypto. [00:59] We don't even need to introduce her. She's just a very, very legitimate person. And it has had an incredible career and is an icon and a legend in this industry. And what I have found in working in crypto that has been... [01:16] such a delight and so much fun is there is a specific type of person and especially a type of woman [01:23] who has been in this industry a while, who has a certain... [01:27] vibe and worldview and

[01:31] personality that is... [01:34] One, incredible to be around, just great energy. Two, [01:38] just sees the world... [01:40] in a totally different light than anybody else I know. And three, it's just inspiring to be around. Like, just so inspiring. So Meltem's a great time. And we had her on to talk about the meme coin craze and get her perspective. Yeah. I was trying to explain to my husband this morning, I was really excited. I've been really excited that we're having Meltem on the podcast. And I [02:00] to my husband, like who Meltem is and why it's such a big deal to me. And to your point about there being this type of woman in this industry that's really unique, I was [02:10] Trying to explain. And I was like, part of it is that she... [02:13] doesn't care what anyone thinks of her yeah you can say that about a lot of people but like you're like oh no but that's secretly they do i think she really [02:20] She seems so liberated from other people's expectations of her. [02:24] And I find that to be so important. [02:27] Inspiring. [02:28] And totally agree. But also, that's not exactly what makes her so unique either. Like, that's just like one part of it. So anyway. [02:35] We're huge fans. Huge fans. This is a great podcast. Two other things that I really love about it. One is... [02:42] Meme coins have a reputation of being really dumb and being very stupid. And some of that might be true. But what I loved about this conversation is she... [02:51] is so smart that she brought so much thoughtfulness to why this is happening and what it means for the markets and what it means for individual peoples and retail investors and just really thoughtful around it as a whole and not just like looking at something and saying that's dumb and there's nothing to it, which is not the case. And then the second thing is she's just such an embodiment of the brand value of Boys Club, which is post shame. And she's just like.

[03:14] That serves me zero. And I am not going to let that take up any space. Yeah. And I'm like, yes. And amen. Yes, totally. Totally. Well, enjoy. [03:28] Hey, Natasha. So a question we get asked a lot is, what do you look for in a crypto platform? So let's talk about it. Well, Dina, I look for a secure, no fuss platform that I can dive into right away. That's why I love today's sponsor, Kraken. If you're waiting for the right time to get into crypto, Kraken makes it super easy and intuitive to get started. Plus, if you get stuck, they have an award-winning client support team that's available 24-7, along with a bunch of educational guides, articles, and videos to help you along the way. If you're ready to check out [03:57] kraken.com backslash boys club and see what crypto can be not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. Cryptocurrency services are provided to US and US territory customers by Payward Ventures Incorporated, PVI, DBA, Kraken. View PVI's disclosure at kraken.com backslash legal backslash disclosures. We're locked in with Meltem Demir's cult leader really needs no introduction. Welcome to the show Meltem. I'm an aspiring cult leader I'd like to say. [04:27] we're working gotta stay humble nice okay so we're so excited and honored to have you on the show melton i have been a big fan of yours for years i actually went to your conference in 2018 crypto springs [04:42] Crypto Springs. Yeah, in Palm Springs. That was such a fun event. I miss it. We need to bring it back. We need to bring it back. That's where I met Blake Finucane, advisor, close friend, voice club. So just it had meant a lot to me at the time. And I loved it. And I just am such a fan of yours. So really honored, excited.

[05:01] Today, we're going to be talking about something slightly less serious, but equally as important, the meme coin narrative. But how are meme coins not serious? Let's dig into it. I don't know. You tell me. Let's first define what meme coins are for the listener. [05:31] the the x-axis and um you know on the the left which is like the low iq play part and it says mean coins in the middle which is like the normie part of the bell curve middle of the curve it says defy and then the far right which is like the high iq gigabrain part of the bell curve it says ai coins and my response to that was you know the pam meme from the office that says you know corporate wants you to find the difference between these pictures and she says they're they're the same um they're [06:01] What I think is interesting, so a lot of what's happening in crypto, even Bitcoin, right? Bitcoin today, [06:06] hitting 69,000 all time high again. Bitcoin in some ways could be said to be a meme coin. In my view, meme coins are coins that have a lot of lore and narrative behind them. Technically, I think [06:21] the definition of a meme coin is probably you know it has no roadmap no utility in which instance you know bitcoin most certainly is not a meme coin but i think um meme coins today are coins that draw on popular culture references typically no roadmap no utility um they have a very interesting generally very ephemeral life cycle and then once in a while we get a meme coin that kind of breaks

[06:51] That is Doge, which is like a 2013 era meme coin. It's been around a long time. Currently number 10 largest coin by market cap, which is crazy. Shiba or SHIB was that in the last cycle. There's a new one this cycle called WIF, W-I-F, which literally stands for the dog with a hat. The hat stays on. Yeah. [07:12] Yeah, so that's a high level definition of a mean coin. [07:16] But again, I think there's a certain element of sort of the medics and lore behind everything we're doing in crypto because we're all chronically online and we can kind of talk about that a bit more. Great. I love it. Super helpful definition. I am wondering why... [07:33] you think there is a meme coin craze happening right now. Like, is it market related? Is it timing? Like dog with hat? [07:39] What are sort of the different components to why this thing happens? Okay, so I think there's a few popular theories. If we want a certain kind of the lighthearted side, I think a certain element of crypto has always leaned really hard into internet culture. Bitcoin and crypto generally, you know, is a big part of 4chan culture. I grew up on 4chan. I'm a millennial. So all these internet forums, you know, there are a lot of memes and gifs. [08:08] that are sort of a part of that era of internet culture. And so I think memes are just very nostalgic. They're something we relate to. It's why we love the styling of anything that looks like 1990s, like Windows, KidPix, AOL, kind of homepage. There's some nostalgia to memes, just because so much of crypto culture is rooted in internet meme culture and like this chronically online meme culture. I think that's one angle. It appeals to this very basic part of things.

[08:38] other end of the spectrum, if we go really dark, there's this concept of financial nihilism, right? And I think Travis Kling wrote a great Twitter thread about this. I've spoken about this a lot as well. So many people have. If you are a young person today, millennials own less than 8% of wealth in America, it is impossible to afford a home, it is impossible to afford life. And so what are really the options available to people who are looking at the current macroeconomic [09:08] who are looking at their prospects in this economy, you know, the solution is bet more. And we see betting across the board is up. We just had the Super Bowl highest amount of betting in any Super Bowl ever. We see just more betting across the board and meme coins are a way I think that people are sort of [09:26] financially betting they're like fuck it i could work nine to five you know and hope the company notices and like [09:33] Yay, I'll make enough to live paycheck to paycheck. Or I can gamble on meme coins, I can buy dog with hat, and maybe I'll make enough money to sort of escape the cycle. So those are the two really radical ends of the spectrum. And then somewhere in the middle, I think there is this aspect of just this hive mind like aspect of crypto Twitter, particularly right now. [10:03] Bitcoin rallied 10% in a week. There were some days last week where Bitcoin and ETH rallied 4%, 5%, 8% in one day. When you start seeing those kinds of candles,

[10:15] you start getting a lot more comfortable with risk. You want to see those candles like on your chart every day. And so people start dabbling with the shit coins, right? Because they're highly volatile. And in this group, you know, of people on Telegram who love shit coins, it was inactive for two years. And now we're just 25 minutes, there's something new and the cycles start moving faster and faster until it's just nonstop rugging left and right. And I think we're kind of reaching a point of mean [10:45] So those are kind of the two ends of the spectrum. And then I think the more rational middle is like, [10:50] People just love volatility. There's a lot of volatility, net worth going up. I feel like, hey, what's not a ridiculous idea? Maybe I'm going to put $1,000 into a dog coin and maybe I'll make some money. Just to be the pearl clutcher for a second here, and not to say that this is actually a reflection of what I believe, but I do think a lot of people see this when they see meme coins. It's, as you say, pure speculation, no utility. It's gambling. It's akin to sports betting, as you mentioned. [11:20] the rugging and the scams. We just had Chris Dixon on the pod. We talked about Read Right Own. And for him, he would probably say that this is the casino side of crypto. It isn't the best expression of the technology. I get that that puts me as a mid twit in your in your bell chart. But what would you say to that? I take great issue with that. Speculation is the lifeblood of markets. Speculation

[11:50] That's on the future. That's what we do. If we look at U.S. GDP to U.S. market capitalization of all U.S. companies, that ratio, right, the ratio of U.S. GDP, meaning the economic output of America, its people, its intellect, etc., that ratio of America's output, productivity output, economic output, compared to the market cap of U.S. companies, that ratio used to be around 40%. Right now, it's around 210%. [12:19] Okay, so this is a clear example of financialization where returns to capital have outpaced returns to labor, right? Betting is profitable. And one of the really interesting things is everybody talks about speculation in crypto like it's a bad thing. And what I all like is when people are like, okay, the speculation, like that was cute, but now we're going to do the real use cases and it makes me want to scream. Because speculation is like hyper-financialization is the primary and most fundamental use case of cryptocurrencies. [12:49] intellectually dishonest to say that the casino is the bad side of crypto, especially when you've made your wealth and like your funds returns on some of the speculation. And that's not a criticism of Chris. I think the book is a great book. I love what A16Z is doing. They have a ton of money and they're spending it on really interesting things and also like fun things, which I think is great. But I think it's a little bit dishonest to say the casino is bad, especially when the casino is kind of [13:15] gotten you to the point of where you are and collectively as an industry right without the hyper financialization without the insane returns i don't think crypto would be where it is and the way i would position it is less casino is bad like

[13:30] Bitcoin is supposed to be a neutral technology, right? We are not dictating what people can and can't use blockchains for. That is the whole point of open, permissionless, literal, unstoppable financial markets, right? And capital markets infrastructure. The whole point is, like, people can build what they want. People can spend their money on what they want. They don't have to get approval from someone to do what they want with their own money. That's the whole point. I may not agree with it. [14:00] institutional LP, but the reality is [14:03] That is kind of what we're building for. So I don't necessarily think it's a negative thing. And again, I think the side we miss is if we look at meme coins, meme coins comprise about 2% of the overall 2.7 trillion crypto market cap. Bitcoin is still about 50%. Ethereum is another 20 something-ish percent. Other L1s make up a lot of the remainder. Like there is a lot of other stuff in crypto. [14:33] speculation is such a small part of the crypto market that I think it's a little bit [14:38] Silly to focus on that as kind of the primary expression. And again, the biggest part of the crypto markets still today is perps and derivatives, right? It's people trading. We don't call that gambling, but effectively what traders are doing is they're making informed bets about the probabilities what the price of primarily Bitcoin and Ether will be in the future. So I would strongly disagree with that statement. And again, no shade, no disrespect, but I think it's really important to recognize that

[15:05] Crypto is the most powerful forge for capital formation that we have ever seen, in my view. And I think we would be remiss if we said speculation was not the primary use case, because I think it's really powerful and it's what makes all of this possible. Why do millions of people every day jump through these crazy hoops, spend hours bridging, pay hundreds of dollars, gas fees, use this really shitty, like really not great infrastructure? It's for the coins, right? [15:34] It's for the gains. And that is what bootstraps the flywheel of adoption. And I don't think that's a bad thing. And I wish you could embrace that. Like we're all so ashamed of it. I'm proud of it. Yeah, capitalism. Like yes, gains. Get that bag. Get your dog coins. I love it. It's so refreshing. We have a post-shame culture here at Boys Club. And Meltem, you are an embodiment of it. And I absolutely am living for it. Okay. So I would love to hear from [16:04] you [16:04] you know so much of this is speculation it's the group chats the side telegram chats it's [16:09] crypto Twitter, you know, all these things pop off for many different reasons. But I'd love your insight into your experience of you're a DGEN princess, you're going around your airdrop farming, you're doing the meme coin stuff like, what is your [16:24] approach to that work and some of it's fun some of it's strategic like I'm curious genuinely like how you approach doing that [16:32] Okay, so here's my take. I don't really dabble with meme coins, and here's why. It takes up a lot of time. Like, you literally have to be glued to your screen because these things are so ephemeral. And also, I have no edge. The reality of meme coins is the house always wins, right? There's typically a massive pre-mine, like 50%.

[16:53] 100% pre-mine, right? The liquidity pools tend to be very small. The team of insiders that launches the meme coin is typically looking for an opportunity to dump the coin on people who are buying it. It is not a game where I have edge. And so I don't play that game, right? I just, I don't have the capacity for it. I don't have the bandwidth for it. And it's just not [17:17] I love memes, but it's not something I'm passionate about. Like, I don't want to be glued to my laptop 24/7, like chasing shitters, right? That's just, that's not for me. And that's, again, not disrespect to people who want to do that. I have some friends who do it like. [17:30] The meme coin traders I know, they have a six milligrams in in their lip right now. They're on like 50 milligrams of Adderall. They haven't slept in two days. I'm not that hard. Yeah. I'm a soft. I'm in my soft girl era. Like, I'm not that hard. Here's my view on it. What I like to do is I like to identify long term trends and memes and narratives that I think have staying power. [18:00] goal was crypto dick butts, right? And I still have all my crypto dick butts and I love them. That is a meme I get. That is a meme that I think has staying power. Like, to me, there are just an infinite variety of ways that you can create lore around crypto dick butts and like a dick in a butt that will always be funny. Um, [18:17] There's a strong community of people who hold crypto dick butts. That I can do. I recently did do something really funny. I have a Roth IRA that I put entirely into crypto, and I can trade it on Gemini through an investment advisor I work with. So I liquidated everything in the portfolio about two weeks ago, and I bought just Doge and Pepe. Oh my gosh, you are so DJ.

[18:47] what, this is an IRA I've had for a while. I converted into crypto a while ago. And I was like, you know what, like, there's no tax impact. By the way, if you live in the US, obviously, tax impact of short term cap gains for long term important to think about. Another reason why I'm more of a long term. [19:02] Holder and [19:03] prioritize for long-term cap gains for short-term trading. But doing it in a tax-advantaged account is a really great way to do it. So I was like, you know what? Fuck it. I'm selling all my Bitcoin, my ETH. [19:13] Because I saw the momentum when the dogs start running, right? The dogs were starting around. I was like, the dogs are running. We're going to meme coin cycle. So I put everything into Doge and Pepe. Doge just because... [19:27] It's front of mind. It's like on every screen. You can trade it on every venue that offers crypto. And I also think the fact that Doge is under a dollar is appealing, right? Like Bitcoin is $69,000. It's a lot of money. I want to own like one of something. Dogecoin is 20 cents. Like I can own a lot of Dogecoins. I can buy a lot of them. That feels good. So I do think there's that unit of account bias that people have. And then Pepe, because I think Pepe captured a lot of sort of the narrative last cycle. [19:57] want to double up on the dogs although I should have bought Floki because Floki is really running but I think you kind of see when these narrative cycles start and again for me it was like hey I can trade in this account without any tax impact so that seems like a good thesis I did something dumb though when Pepe kind of topped a couple days ago I sold all the Pepe and now Pepe's running again and I'm like that was dumb but I'm probably going to buy more dogs than frogs honestly but

[20:27] by the ones that are established where there's a lot of liquidity, a lot of holders, a lot of market participants where like not one person or a small team can sort of. [20:37] destroy the entire market. So I'm kind of boring in this regard. Yeah. One thing that I do love about meme coins is that, you know, attention tokens, the dumber... [20:47] the better, honestly. Like the more that you're able to sort of crock it, the better it performs. You can never have a roadmap and you can never have any utility because then people have expectations. Right. But anytime a meme coin's like, oh, we're launching staking, like, oh, I'm like, fuck, I'm out. [21:02] Yeah. Never met no utility because nobody's ever disappointed. It's like the purest essence of internet culture that has been financialized is the meme coin. Yeah. I want the pure like unfiltered. I don't want the bullshit around it. You don't need to write a white paper. And that's why I'm like a lot of the AI coins, right? Like you want these white, I'm like, this is garbage. This is like such vaporware, which is why to me, like meme coins, AI coins, and then DeFi governance coins. [21:32] like a little bit similar, right? You can try to wrap shit around it, but shit is still shit. Right. I was looking at the Bankless guys and they were talking about the AI meme coins. They're like, the reason that these AI coins are popping is because they're going to be in an NVIDIA presentation in two weeks. And I'm like, oh, well, that doesn't really align with what I think a meme coin is. Which, by the way, when... [21:53] And when NVIDIA does their investor day, this is a joke, I'm in this institutional investor chat and we're talking about, you know, NVIDIA right now, I think just past Amazon in terms of market cap, right? It's just been on this meteoric run.

[22:07] And we're talking about how it might be the biggest company in the world by the end of the year, which is amazing. We love GPUs. The spice must flow. But one of the funny things is people in the chat were like, okay, don't buy the stock going into this Investor Day conference. Buy this meme coin on Solana. That's Jensen, like named after Jensen Wang, the CEO. So meme coin culture has perpetrated the macro trading groups, which is hilarious. They're like, yeah, don't buy Nvidia stock. Buy the Jensen Wang meme coin. [22:37] Guys. [22:37] Guys, let's. [22:39] But no, I think with a lot of the AI claims, like there's some really amazing projects in the AI space. And I believe Ilya from NIR is presenting in a session together with some other leaders in the AI space because he did a lot of work in AI prior to starting NIR protocol. And I think NIR protocol is now doing a lot in the AI space. [23:08] sort of other high performance compute needs. Those are very valid. But then I also think a lot of people right now into that, the performance and success of those projects are trying to launch these really poorly conceptualized projects in coins, doing these like insider pre-sales with a ton of KOLs and like crypto accounts, not VCs, but just like people who have a lot of reach and distribution who can market these things. Not really clear. We call this vaporware, right?

[23:38] sort of drafting off the popularity of this growing category. So yeah, utility use case, I don't want it give me pure unadulterated meme. Joe Bowden meme corn Joe, Joe Bowden, Joe Bowden, Trump, Nancy Palunzi. Someone was pitching me Kim Jong Un. Oh, my God. [24:00] Ha ha ha. [24:01] It's wild. It's wild, but also hilarious. Yeah. And, you know, Ryan Selkis at Massari was like, I'm holding both Joe Bowden and... [24:11] Denalled. [24:13] Trump or whatever it is because I'm bipartisan. And I was like, that is so funny. Both of those, both of those things, by the way, have like, cratered, right? Somebody pitched me Nancy [24:25] Palloon C. [24:26] you know, at [24:27] one price and now it's down like 95%. And the whole thing is just ridiculous. Again, very ephemeral. It's like the first iteration, you know, of defy was food farming, if you guys remember yams, and then pasta, like there are all these copycat projects that had different food names. And so the food farming craze sort of lasted two or three months in the summer of honestly 2020. I farmed [24:53] the food coins. It was not a profitable endeavor. I had a good time. And then that led to more serious innovation that sort of leveraged some of these dynamics. I think we're going to see, somebody's been pitching me cat coins today. I'm hearing a lot of cat coin things. Somebody's pitching me that dragons are the next big animal coin craze. It's a real animal story time. I don't know that the dogs are done yet. We're getting more dogs. We've got dogs, we've got cats, we've

[25:23] Again, this is such a small part of the crypto market. It's just the funniest part of the crypto market. And then everybody loves the story, right? It's like our version of Cinderella. [25:33] is meme coins right so in the cinderella story like girl finds handsome prince like falls in love happily ever after the crypto version of cinderella is i bought a meme coin a hundred dollars of a meme coin and it went up 20 000 and now i have a million dollars and i quit my job that's crypto we're all so mentally ill [25:56] Oh my god. But listen... [25:59] The price of a banana is what, like $10? You know, Wendy's is getting demand pricing on their burgers. A girl's got to eat, Natasha. Let me get my Joe Bowden. Bitches need burgers. Oh, my God. I love it. Okay. I know we're out of time here, but I want to end with this question. [26:18] And dying to hear your thoughts. Should Boys Club launch a meme coin? [26:22] Response depends. [26:25] Okay. [26:26] I think launching a meme coin carries certain reputational risk because inevitably, right, meme coins, in my view, are zero sum for the most part. Actually, for all part, meme coins are effectively zero sum. So when you launch a boys club meme coin, you will... [26:45] benefit, but someone will be financially harmed. And I think this is where I sort of... Pump and dump. It'd be a pump and dump. Well, there's zero sum, right? Even if the intention isn't to pump and dump, like there's no intention to maintain this. There's no utility. And again, some things reach escape velocity like Doge, Pepe, et cetera. But there's still...

[27:04] zero sum, right? Just the persistence of the meme is what gives them staying power. And so I think the question is just like, are you are you willing to sort of risk your reputation for short term? [27:17] gain and what is the potential harm. So this is where, again, I would say there's a careful sort of thing to balance here. I would never... [27:26] much meme coin just because it's not really [27:29] something I want on my conscience. And I think, you know, of all the games we could be playing, there's so many different games to play in crypto, which is what I love. There's literally room for every type of mental illness in this industry, which is great. [27:42] That is great. It is a very accepting play. There's a buyer for everything. The question is just what games do you want to play? And as I said, for me, meme coins, it's not my specialty. I love internet culture. I love the meme coins. I'm in the groups. I'm watching. Is that the one you want to play? I think there are higher ROI games you could play. Oh, absolutely not. Hearing you say it, I'm like, Dina and I can't be like the tiniest bit confrontational to someone who's clearly in the wrong. We could never live with ourselves if we were... Oh, yeah. [28:10] People will get very angry. If you launch a meme coin, people will get very angry. You will have a lot of disgruntled people. Yeah, that's a no for me. It's part of the fun of crypto. I appreciate this conversation so much. Melsum, thank you so much. Wow, we went on a whole ride here. Such a great time. Such a good time. Yeah, again, pick the game you want to play, but speculation isn't. Greed is good. Greed is good. It's what's gotten us here. It's going to take us to the moon.

[28:39] It's time for a more open, inclusive, and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone, everywhere, all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus, forget about waiting times and waiting lines. You can send, receive, and trade crypto anywhere near instantly. [29:09] be at kraken.com backslash boys club non-investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss transfers to a third party are not available on kraken cryptocurrency services are provided to us and us territory customers by payward ventures inc pvi dba kraken view pvi's disclosures at kraken.com backslash legal backslash disclosures [29:30] Okay, it's time for some draft tweets. [29:34] Okay, I have one. Let's hear it. I couldn't really figure this one out, but... [29:40] cycle syncing with the group chat. Do you know what I mean when I say that? Yeah, I hear market cycle syncing. [29:50] Oh, no, I mean like menstrual cycle syncing. Well, I think that that's the double entendre. Oh, it's really funny. It's really funny. [29:59] You didn't mean it that way? [30:02] I didn't mean it like market cycle thinking. No, I meant it like menstrual cycle thinking. Oh, I thought you meant that's what's funny about it is it's both. Okay. It's like it's here and there and everywhere.

[30:13] Should I let it rip? Rip it. Okay. I have a draft tweet that I need to find because it's on my desktop, which is the actually worst thing that Elon Musk has ever done to me. And I know it wasn't even him, but okay. Can you get me on the list is a beautiful name for a girl. [30:29] *laughter* [30:34] it's so funny i love it it's my own tweet and it's so funny i love it i love it i love it okay i need to send it at the right time and in the right place i don't know why it does it does need a timing it was perfect for each number i don't know why i didn't ship it but oh i know i think i had i think i drafted it when the list like a few weeks before and i was like i'll send it but then it's on desktop so like that just doesn't happen for me you know oh oh i see like it's saved into your desk yeah that's a tricky but great great tweet thank you wow we've got some really good [31:04] is open we haven't done draftees in a while so we haven't had a place for the energy to release okay i'll see you later [31:11] Thanks for listening.