Context: Tasha Kim on Subcultural Capital and what Gen-Z is buying online

[00:00] Welcome to Season 1, Episode 3 of the [00:02] of context. Views on crypto and culture presented by Boys Club. With me, your host, Blake Finucane. [00:09] Today on the show, we welcome Tasha Kim. [00:12] who recently transitioned out of venture capital to join a crypto consumer social app called Primitives. [00:17] Her breadth of experience and nuanced viewpoint makes for a super in-depth and intelligent conversation. [00:24] We speak about what defines a crypto market fit, [00:26] GenZ's online behavior patterns and how that impacts crypto products going forward [00:31] gamified fashion experiences in Roblox and Minecraft, as well as highlight one of the most exciting up-and-coming crypto artists called Ripcash. [00:39] We also talk about fan culture and its relationship to social media platforms, and [00:44] And in particular, [00:45] Harry Styles fan fiction. [00:47] A true Boys Club fave. [00:49] So, prepare to learn something new in this episode. Let's get into it. [01:00] Welcome Tasha Kim, currently lead operations and growth at Primitives, onto the show. It's so exciting to have you, Tasha. We first met at where else other than the first Boys Club event? [01:13] It was a stunning dinner and talk in New York in November 2021, which seems like so long ago. It was during NFT NYC. And in classic crypto form, we followed each other on Twitter. [01:25] And I've been reading and absorbing your content over, I guess, the year and a bit that we've been connected. And I think you're a super unique thinker, incredibly well researched. I see you as an academic at heart. And I mean that.

[01:40] as such a compliment, the way you're able to take complex ideas and theories and make them fit into real life. [01:46] And the way that I read it is you actively participate in culture, whether that's art, social media, tech, whatever it is. And that allows you to actually more fully understand those things through your active participation in them. [02:00] And you take this very observant, thoughtful lens when engaging in what you're consuming. And I love that framework. That's my framework that I follow in everything I do from my academic research to my own personal investing to, you know, investing for my fund. [02:15] um, [02:16] And it's really the inspiration behind this podcast. So I think you just... [02:20] fit the essence so well. So I can't wait to get into it with you. Thank you for being here. Yeah. Thank you for having me. I don't know how to live up to that intro. That was incredibly kind and generous. I feel like the admiration goes both ways. Thank you. I know that you're such a fan too of [02:39] um, art and culture. So I wanted to start out by asking, I'm really, really, really intrigued to know, what are you thinking about right now in the crypto space? What's, what's standing out to you? [02:52] I think we're in a really interesting part of the crypto ecosystem life cycle, I guess, right now. [02:58] It's undeniable that we're in a bear market. [03:02] um [03:03] One of the cool things that I've seen happen is I feel like people, operators, builders are spending a lot more time building and less time talking. Crypto Twitter is still active, but noticeably quieter.

[03:19] But it feels like this really cool moment where people are coming together. A lot of the crypto tourists have left. And the companies and ideas and projects that are coming out of it are really interesting. [03:30] Yeah, I like the term crypto tours. I haven't heard that before, but absolutely. And I think I mean, I hope what that does is then make room for the genuine people committed to the technology and what it represents come through. [03:48] Yeah, I think so. Another thing I feel like I've seen a lot of is companies are no longer defining themselves as being crypto companies. They're just companies. [03:58] which [03:58] It's something I envisioned happening for a while, even when we were last year in the crypto boom. It's something that we saw with other kinds of technology. You know, companies used to say that they were Internet companies. Now every company is an Internet company. That happened in the early 2000s and in 2010s. It was a big deal to market yourself as a mobile company. Now, again, every company is a mobile company. [04:28] Every company is a crypto company, but more and more companies are embracing parts of blockchain technology. [04:34] Whether it's Starbucks with the rewards program, which is like Starbucks is a coffee company, but they're integrating it. And I don't think Starbucks would ever call themselves like a crypto company. Let's hope not. You know what I mean? I need my soy chai latte. Yeah, totally.

[04:51] But it feels refreshing, yeah, that this is just becoming a standard part of technology, [04:56] that's just being integrated across all different kinds of sectors. [05:00] Yeah, and I really, really like that point. I mean, I think with that, again, I mean, we're at the right timing for that too. I think companies don't have a choice because with all the SBF issues, [05:13] kind of drama going down, crypto getting a bad rap and people outside of the industry just so being turned off by any terms, Web3, NFTs, whatever it is, that companies need to be just companies and not crypto companies for their own survival. I think particularly on the consumer facing side of things, if they're trying to [05:32] get people to use their products. So I totally agree. And I wonder too, I mean, what comes to my mind most prominently is obviously Reddit and what they did with their digital collectibles additions. They launched their project on Polygon. They got over 3 million people to sign up for wallets, and they never use the term NFT. And obviously, again, for context for people, Reddit did kind [06:02] You could mint NFTs and they could work as your digital avatars on Twitter. Those were all NFTs, but that was never the term. I certainly don't think of Reddit as a crypto company either, but they've been, I think a lot of the quote unquote non-crypto companies have also been kind of. [06:18] pushing the technology and its use cases as well, because they're not relying on kind of the very educated user for adoption. They're actually pushing it to new people, which forces them then to be more skilled in their language and more skilled on the education side.

[06:36] Totally. [06:37] I've spent a lot of the past year building a company called Primitives, and I think this is something that we think about similarly to what we're seeing happen with Reddit, which is just the accessibility. [06:49] And yeah, [06:50] People talk about product market fit, but I think that you need to have like crypto market fit with your audience. You have to think about who your audience is and what's going to appeal to them. [06:59] The Reddit audience, I think the way that they did their strategy works perfectly for the audience that they have. [07:05] Their audience is tech forward. They're super interested in community, but they don't particularly care about [07:11] the nuances of blockchain technology in terms of like how it actually works. And so, [07:16] What I think they did really well is they communicated the value [07:20] But they didn't get into the mechanics of how it worked, which... [07:24] honestly, is how most consumers I... [07:27] Yeah, I don't have time for that. Yeah. We don't care about... [07:31] How does the cloud storage work? Or how does the code work in the app that we love? You just want to see the value to you as a user. [07:40] With the Reddit avatars in particular, they also met the consumer where they were, which was on the platform. They didn't try to take people outside of the platform. They offered products that were immediately usable, i.e. avatars. When they comment, people can see what you look like and you can kind of customize it. And I thought that was perfect in that they weren't trying to make a whole new experience. They were really just actually adding on top of and making the kind of Reddit experience more rich, which I thought was really, really smart as well.

[08:10] Thank you. [08:11] Yeah, it's really cool. I feel like a lot of the ethos of Web3 is this idea of the interoperable web where things are transposable and you can take your wallet from place to place. You can move your NFTs around. [08:23] And... [08:24] And I think all of that is still important and valuable. But at the same time, you do need to, if you're a platform launching something, create enough value on the platform itself because [08:37] At this point in time, many people are using those kind of [08:41] composable elements of Web3, but not everybody. And so you need to provide a great core experience. [08:48] while also plugging into the broader ecosystem. [08:52] Yeah. And I think that term interoperability to how you use it, you know, it's such a buzzword and everyone talks about it. But, you know, the way that you're structuring it and framing it there is, okay, listen, these very traditional web to gaming companies or social media companies, whatever it is, they can actually graft crypto experiences onto their already kind of social platforms in ways that are relatively simple. And that's, I think, again, where a lot of the power lies. [09:22] You know, because this is a crypto culture podcast, I'd love to know kind of what ideas and reference points do you use outside of crypto to actually support your work and ideas within it? [09:39] I think for better or for worse, I am probably an extremely online person, which means that I spend a lot of time looking at various happenings on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter. I spend a lot of time reading, and I just finished reading a book called Everything I Need to Get From You.

[09:58] which was written by Caitlin Tiffany. She's a staff writer at the Atlantic. It's fascinating. [10:04] She talks a lot about fan culture, which I think is really cool, and specifically about how fans intersect with tech platforms. [10:13] Interesting. [10:14] like almost a synergistic relationship between fandoms online and, [10:20] mostly the social media platforms that [10:23] One, they helped to kind of like build a user base for, but also the social media platforms propelled these fans communities to become significant and grow over time. One of the things that Caitlin Tiffany brings up in this book, which I think is fascinating, is that... [10:40] um she makes a very clear point that many of the people that have run these fan communities which is not a recent phenomenon like it's been going back [10:49] to the 90s, 80s, even before that, just hasn't always been as tech-focused. But they've created enormous value for the platforms that they've chosen to be a part of, whether that's someplace like Tumblr or Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, et cetera, [11:03] But they haven't received a lot of value in return. [11:07] Being a part of a fandom or just existing online is oftentimes a lot of uncompensated labor. [11:13] And fans are rewarded in other ways, you know, friendships, community, status, reputation, things like that. But... [11:20] When we think about what new Web3 platforms have the potential to do or the ways that traditional social platforms are being pushed to innovate because of what's happening from the crypto community, there is an opportunity for people to have more ownership.

[11:37] And for increased monetization and things like that, which does feel really cool to me. [11:43] One of my dear friends is a Harry Sal fanatic. I can't say I share the same love. I mean, I get it, but I don't really get it. And she was telling me about the kind of [11:55] fan fiction world of Harry Styles, which let me tell you, I haven't really looked into. And when I say I haven't really, I absolutely haven't. But when she was telling me about it, I was like, oh my gosh, the amount of hours and time that these fans... [12:11] take to write [12:12] full-blown novels about the people that they love, I was like, there has to be a crypto idea around fan fiction and a token system that can be implemented because the amount of time, energy, and effort that that takes to craft these stories seems astonishing. Yeah, it's crazy. I feel like if you were to do a Venn Dagger in between Harry Styles fans and the boys club community, there's probably a very significant sliver. [12:42] the listeners are going to be like, Oh, you haven't read Harry Styles fan fiction. Well, that makes one of us. Um, you can maybe send any of the fan fix, um, [12:51] Tash in my way and we'll be happy to read it and review it. I'm speaking for you as well. We'll see how it is. We'll see how it goes. And, um, you know, we'll see what we can do on the crypto side of it to get everyone compensated. Um, [13:02] But, you know, an offer if anyone wants to put Harry Styles fan fiction or other fan fiction on Mirror, I will buy a copy. See, that's really interesting. But like, yeah, let me collect your work. Yeah, I think Mirror is a really interesting example in terms of.

[13:20] ways to monetize labor and writing. For those of you who don't know, Mirror is primarily a written platform and you're able to actually buy people's articles or their ideas and they become NFTs that way. And again, I think these ideas are so interesting, and particularly in relation to fan culture and what can happen there. And it just represents the kind of endless possibilities that are taking place around [13:49] you know, groups coming together and we always talk about communities, but we never really talk about big fandoms and where the possibilities lie there. So I think that's really, really interesting. [14:01] And kind of then moving forward and speaking of kind of, [14:06] fan culture, internet culture, and how they come together. I'm really interested to get your thoughts on, is there anything in particular that you define as crypto culture, where it lives, and how it kind of manifests? [14:24] particularly because I know how online you are. So would love to hear your thoughts. [14:30] Yeah. [14:31] It feels like there has been some kind of a dominant crypto culture over the past, [14:36] let's say two to three years. Um, [14:40] I don't think that's the only crypto culture that has existed, but it's been the most visible one. [14:47] I would say that culture feels like it's been largely male dominated.

[14:51] I [14:52] A lot of kind of like the visual representation of that culture, I feel like has been popular profile photo collection. So we can think about [15:01] Bored apes, punks, cool cats, things like that. [15:07] And I think that is... [15:09] can be a great part of the crypto community, but there is so much more. I think that a lot of [15:16] the rest of crypto culture has been less visible. And so not everybody... [15:21] knows about it, but the more time I spent online discovering it, [15:25] I think it's been really incredible because it exists in private Discord servers or as DAOs or even in small groups. [15:33] in real life. Like, for example, there is actually a really interesting crypto community in Williamsburg. I bet there is. [15:40] really values oriented people who are like working on smaller projects, um, contributing to DAOs, things like that. Um, [15:49] And a lot of these kind of like subcultures within crypto, [15:54] I have observed are being run by women, being run by people of color, other marginalized groups within the crypto ecosystem. [16:05] But true to form, I think they are driving a lot of really interesting ideas. [16:10] we might consider boys club to be a part of that subculture, I think. Totally. And I think with that, you know, [16:19] a lot of what becomes identified as culture are people that are shouting the loudest. And oftentimes that lends itself to a very kind of stereotypical kind of archetype that we know so well. So I think these kind of sub-private groups become really, really powerful in that way. And I guess...

[16:39] Speaking of that, I know, too, that you write and talk a lot, and I've been so interested in your ideas about Gen Z and, I guess, Gen Z to Canadians, Gen Z to Americans, Gen Z's online behavior. [16:57] And... [16:57] how you see that impacting crypto culture, crypto user behaviors or trends. I know that you've thought a lot about this term subcultural capital, which again, I think [17:09] is very related to crypto culture in general. But I'd love to kind of hear your thoughts on that. [17:16] Totally. So subcultural capital is not an idea that I came up with, but it's something that [17:23] that I think really has resonated with how I think about the world. It's a term that a sociologist named Sarah Thornton came up with in 1995. And if you haven't heard of it before, it's basically this idea that [17:39] Subcultural capital is having taste or underground knowledge. So you could think of it like knowing about up and coming rappers, new fashion designers, being early to trends, which is largely something that young people are really good at. [17:54] because they have a lot of time to invest in doing this kind of work to uncover cool new things. But the other reason is because they oftentimes lack traditional forms of capital. So like they don't have money yet. They don't have a lot of like influence or reputation. And so subcultural capital is almost like a substitute for actual capital.

[18:16] Um, and so, um, [18:18] I think that you see Gen Z trying to build subcultural capital and express that they have it online all the time. Um... [18:27] I think where this intersects with crypto, which is really cool, which we touched on a little bit when we were talking about like One Direction and fandoms is that... [18:37] There are not great ways for people to monetize subcultural capital right now. [18:43] But. [18:44] Crypto and Web3 presents the opportunity to better reward people for doing this kind of work. [18:53] Whether you're like curating NFT collections and basically creating your own gallery and you can take a cut off of that. Or if you're an early user to a platform and it actually results in you having ownership of it. Like there's so many interesting examples of how we could better reward. [19:11] especially young people who [19:13] have subcultural capital or trying to build it, [19:16] in ways that don't exist right now. [19:18] So it's something I've been thinking a lot about. And I love that. And I think what you're talking about, that goes beyond just like being an influencer. Yeah. I feel like having some cultural capital is maybe almost like the opposite of being an influencer. Right. Okay. Or like one step before influencers. Yeah. Like influencers have to learn about trends from somebody. Yeah. [19:38] And I feel like the people that have true subcultural capital are the ones that the influencers are looking to for direction. [19:45] Yeah, that's interesting. And I think too around that, and maybe this is taking this conversation off into a different direction, but a lot of times, as I know you and I both know, the influencers are people who often...

[19:57] or the people that are really pushing culture, really pushing trends, particularly in art, fashion, media, music. They're from lower socioeconomic standings. They might be people of color, marginalized groups. And I know then what that means is oftentimes those people aren't necessarily included in crypto communities and networks, traditionally, I mean, in tech in general. [20:27] for them to kind of [20:29] leverage all their knowledge and the way that they see the world. But these buzzwords all the time, how do we make things more accessible? How do we onboard people? The stakes, I think, are really high for that because the difference that this technology can make is game-changing for people. So I think there's so much opportunity for that going forward and it's really important to bring that up. Totally. One of the notes that you took that I just wanted to put forth before [20:59] on to the actual segments was you said that one of the ideas I've been building is that a beautiful product is like music. [21:06] more crypto companies should treat their products like a mixtape. And I love that. And so I just wanted you to kind of expand on that for a quick second, because I wanted to capture that idea. I think that's a great metaphor. So... [21:20] I really should write a blog post about this. I've been thinking about this for a while. Maybe a mirror post. [21:27] So over the summer, I joined a startup called Primitives, which is a new social platform empowering the creative economy with a Web3 crypto angle in terms of

[21:41] allowing for ownership of creations, being able to mint NFTs for free. But the crux of that is that my role encompasses many things, including product. I write a lot of copy. I work on some design things. And I think about user experience holistically. [21:59] and [22:01] It's been a really fascinating experience because this is the first time I've ever been on the ground building product myself. [22:08] And consumer social is one of the hardest areas to build product for. [22:13] People are incredibly particular. It's really competitive. And so I spend a lot of time using different products. And I think what stands out about exceptional products is that there is a rhythm to it. [22:25] And you can tell when something has been really thoughtfully created. [22:30] And I think that's similar to most things that people can make, whether you go to a restaurant and you can tell the chef has really put a lot of care into blending the ingredients together, or you're reading a beautiful book and you can tell that every sentence is so thoughtfully crafted. [22:49] I really think the same is true for technology, but we don't always view it in that way. [22:54] I love that metaphor. And I think, again, the rhythm of user experience and the way you put that is so eloquent. [23:06] So I wanted to get on now to one of the segments of the show called flags, current flags, whether they're red flags, whether they're green flags, yellow flags, but notable projects, events, data points to speak about that represent and point to bigger trends within the crypto space.

[23:24] I wanted to flag some of the gamified fashion experiences that have been going on lately, as I think they're really helpful ways to think about where Web3 fashion is going in general. [23:36] I see fashion as really always having been an early adopter of technology, whether that's production innovation, you know, historically with weaving machines and sewing machines, whether it's new materials, marketing experiments. They've always kind of pushed on the cutting edge, obviously, because trends and being current is so important in that industry. [24:06] continue to move in unique spaces and try things out. And then it's for us to look at and see if we like it or not, what's working, what's not. And so first I wanted to flag... [24:17] Um, late last year Burberry collaborated with Minecraft on something called quite a title. [24:26] Not sure about that one, but okay. And they also then did a physical bespoke capsule collection as well. [24:33] And the clothes incorporate the Minecraft branding and are available in the Minecraft marketplace, as well as they were available in select stores. And, you know, Minecraft, according to ActivePlayer.io, they had, these are current numbers, in the last 30 days, 173 million players.

[25:03] that are placed on the gamer, and they allow the gamer to really roam and change. So instead of featuring segmented areas or numbered levels, sandbox games usually occur in a world to which the gamer has full or at least partial access to. [25:17] Now Burberry has also experimented with NFT drops, but I think the Minecraft example is way more interesting considering the amount of players in Minecraft, considering the cultural importance of Minecraft when it comes to being online where people spend time. [25:34] So I thought, you know, we have to have a bit of a Minecraft segment because for listeners, for boys club people, we got to know about it if we're not there already. I know some of the boys club gals are massive gamers, but some of us aren't. So wanted to flag that. [26:04] sessions in apparent promotion of sustainability. It is H&M, so you can take sustainability for what you want in this context. And Roblox in Q3 of last year had about 58 million daily active users. I did say daily active users, 58 million. And according to a recent earnings presentation

[26:34] you [26:35] Um, [26:36] You know, Roblox, I would say, is relatively complementary to Minecraft in terms of your understanding of it. It can allow users to play a wide variety of games, create games and chat with other people online. So it combines this very important intersection of gaming, social media and social commerce. And I think that we'll continue to see all those three things combined. That's what Web3 does. It's all of that in one. That's, I think, what the blockchain facilitates more easily than any other technology in the past. [27:06] Um, so I do that long introduction of information to say that, um, [27:11] According to a report by the Business of Fashion and McKinsey, it will be likely at least five years before these brands see [27:19] any financial profits from these endeavors. So these are [27:23] massive platforms, [27:25] massive brands and there is no money being made from, I read out the user count to you, 85 million daily, 173 million monthly. [27:36] where does that leave us in terms of [27:40] um, where web three fashion and digital fashion is going. If those are the numbers. [27:45] I think one, the age of people interacting with many of these platforms is super interesting. Gen Alpha is people that are younger than middle school. They are spending a tremendous amount of time, as you mentioned, on these platforms like Minecraft and Roblox. I was reading that Fortnite sold over $2 billion of in-game skins and digital fashion accessories alone.

[28:08] Crazy. [28:09] It is clear that platforms are making money on this. Maybe some of the things that have yet to come to fruition are like these larger investments by brands. Like you mentioned Burberry. [28:21] has been doing projects. I mean, it's hard to think of a major fashion brand, especially like at the higher luxury levels that has not engaged with one of these platforms to do some kind of integration. [28:32] Um, [28:33] I think the... [28:36] It's not completely clear... [28:38] what is going to come of those things yet. Part of me thinks that we have to wait for Gen Alpha to grow up [28:46] to see this fully play out. [28:48] Um... [28:49] I'm not sure if we will see older consumers really flocking to digital fashion or if it's really a generational shift that as these younger people come of age and start to... [29:05] you know, like spend on their own and build more of their identity that we will see, you [29:10] even more growth within digital fashion, [29:13] Yeah. And I'll just say the official age range of Gen Alpha is anyone born between 2010 and 2025. So they're still coming to fruition. So then, you know, being 2023 now, it's anyone under the age of 13 or 13 and under. [29:29] What it also shows us is, again, the value of [29:33] shifting to digital items and how important that is. I do wonder, I

[29:38] You know, NFTs obviously seem like the perfect integration for this. But also, you know, when it comes to Web3 fashion now and today, it's hard to see, again, those immediate... [29:54] use cases, I look down the road and I go, oh yeah, yeah, for 12 and 10 year olds, it makes a lot of sense. But for all these brands experimenting now, where is that upside? So I think that that will be really interesting to witness. [30:08] Yeah. I'm super excited to see, I guess, like a Web3 native fashion designer really come up. [30:16] to become popular. Similarly to how I'm excited for like NFT Native artists [30:23] that are coming up and NFT native musicians, things like that. [30:27] There are some really interesting companies in the space now that are catering to an older audience, [30:33] Um, [30:34] Charlie Cohen is working on a company called Restless, and Danny Loftus is working on a company called Drop. I feel like Danny's takes on digital fashion are consistently so exceptional. [30:45] - Cool. [30:47] And those are like early stage projects. So there is not a lot that's been publicly released yet. [30:54] But I do find it fascinating. I bought two pairs of virtual sneakers myself. [30:58] Tell me about it. Where were they from? [31:02] I bought them on a platform called Artisan, which is a vertical marketplace just for digital fashion. [31:08] one of a few operating in space.

[31:11] The sneakers that I bought have a VR element to them. They actually integrate with a Snapchat filter, so you can wear them yourself. [31:22] Um, and I've seen many different ways that digital fashion operates, whether it's through like AR, VR type things, in-game purchases, um, um, [31:33] But I did test them out. I took some photos with the shoes. I really just wanted to see what would it be like to build out a digital closet. Then I went on Gallery, which is an NFT platform, to create a digital closet for my shoes. And I was able to write gallery notes to explain why the shoes were meaningful to me, almost as if I was taking somebody into my real closet. And I had put a sign on the wall to explain why the clothes were meaningful to me. [32:02] I love that. See, this is Tash, everyone, participating in everything, trying it out, playing around. So I love that. Did you find it valuable? Would you do it again? Or where do you think the big missing pieces are from the experience you had doing that? [32:19] Yeah, I think the question is really... [32:23] Where is the value? Yeah. I think there is some value now to be able to take cool photos with a filter. So buying the virtual sneakers is a way to access that filter. But that's really like a novelty. And I don't feel that's true enduring value. [32:40] I think it's more, what do the sneakers really unlock for you? Or whatever other kind of digital item you're purchasing. So does it give you access to exclusive experiences? Does it give you...

[32:51] Ownership in a community, does it give you access to an identity that you can attach to yourself because the brand itself is so strong? [33:00] Can you use them in different games? [33:04] There's interesting things being done around interoperability of digital fashion within games. So the idea that [33:11] I could buy a pair of sneakers and wear them in Roblox, but then have them transfer over to the sandbox or Minecraft or something else. Like, [33:20] It's not fully baked in yet, but people are working on these ideas and that's really exciting. [33:25] um [33:26] Yeah, I mean, by one thing and bring it different places with you online. [33:31] Yeah, and I love that. And I think that will be one of the big, big keys for Web3 Fashion, too. And, you know, I think how you said, you know, you... [33:42] you ported it over to Snapchat or it had that AR VR component to it. And I think mobile will play a really, really big role in a lot of web three fashion, just because again, it's about, [33:56] taking photos. It's about posting on social media, which is largely mobile-based. So I think there'll be a big opportunity there, which then does lead me into the last flag of the segment, which, very in line with what we were just talking about, mobile gaming revenue was forecasted at $92.2 billion last year. So that was revenues for 2022, according to Newzoo, a well-known crypto gaming

[34:24] Which, interestingly, actually was a 6.4% decline from the year before, which people are chalking up to. Obviously, COVID restrictions have lifted a lot and people have less money and less time to be on their phone, which I think is probably a good thing. Why I think this stat is so interesting is... [34:42] is, you know, we've been talking a lot about onboarding and what that looks like for this episode. And, and, you know, [34:48] What's more affordable than a computer or gaming console? [34:51] a phone. And I think people forget or, you know, don't necessarily know that, [34:57] you were able to play Axie Infinity on Android devices. Apparently there is iOS support coming soon. But Axie was largely or basically fully responsible for the gaming free-to-play boom, which has, of course, taken many iterations since then. But it really kick-started or is how Web3 Gaming started. [35:21] And even they were doing it before there was terms like Web3 Gaming. [35:27] I think there's still such an opportunity for crypto gaming and crypto apps in general, actually, to be on mobile. [35:35] And I don't think we've seen... [35:38] that [35:40] Mobile applications really move into the crypto realm. I know that there's a lot of limitations on that, but I would love to get your thoughts on kind of crypto's relationship to mobile. I'm obviously talking in a gaming context, but I know you have lots of thoughts about this as well.

[35:54] Yeah. [35:55] I mean, mobile gaming was one of the biggest shifts in gaming that happened over the past decade. Yeah, yeah. And actually games or console games are not still important and popular. [36:08] Yeah. [36:09] The... [36:10] Thing that's really hindering mobile gaming presence right now, in my opinion, is the guidelines that the App Store, like Apple's App Store, has put forth. [36:20] where they have not been super clear on how they're going to be, I guess, legislating NFT and crypto. But what limited information they put out now has made it seem like certain things around selling tokens, unlocking experiences is not allowed. They've been going after certain companies, but not others. So there's just a lot of uncertainty. Right. [36:43] Thinking about mobile applications in general, but especially games, because there's so much development energy that goes into producing a game that feels really risky to build something custom built for iOS if you're not entirely sure that it will even be able to remain on the App Store. [37:13] as well for mobile as kind of the very quick hit candy crush type games as well. Yeah, I think it'll be really interesting to see. I would love to see Apple come out with...

[37:25] more clear guidelines [37:27] I think when I, the last time I read through their terms online was like maybe two bullet points that specifically are for a DMT. Yeah, literally. And it would be helpful to have more understanding from them, specific case studies. [37:40] And I wish that they would be friendlier to... [37:45] companies wanting to do blockchain-related applications. [37:49] A lot of companies are building what's called a progressive web app, just like kind of a technical term, but it's basically just that you use on your phone that feels like an app, but it's not. You just access it on Safari. [38:03] Maybe you've used like Partiful as a great example of a progressive web app that I feel like can scale that. [38:09] Boys Club uses Partiful for all their different parties oftentimes. So certainly have used it in that context. Yes. So if you use Partiful, you know what a progressive web app is. [38:20] It's something that feels like super intuitive, but it is fundamentally a website. [38:24] it's harder to have a game that's a progressive web app. I have been wondering if this is like the golden moment for Android developers because... [38:33] If you can't be on the App Store, should you be on Android? It's definitely like the golden time to be building a really cool progressive web app and do things that you actually can't do in the App Store. And it lets you iterate much more quickly. [38:48] I've been learning a lot about this because we are building a progressive web app at Primitives. So that's been really cool to see that happening. [38:55] Yeah.

[38:57] And interestingly, [38:58] You know, when we think about international users, like a majority of them are [39:04] Android. Exactly. Users and not on iPhone, like iPhone is really dominant within the US, but internationally more people use Android. [39:14] So if we think about crypto accessibility, if you are building on Android, there are potentially underserved markets that you can be tapping into. [39:24] Which is really interesting when you think about giving more access, ownership, and more [39:30] um or just like a grow strategy if you're a company if you're going after users that [39:35] other companies are not necessarily thinking about. Yeah. There's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of interesting ramifications. [39:43] Totally, totally. And I think, you know, I love what you said. And I think there's huge opportunities. Obviously, we saw with Axie, huge uptake in the Philippines and Southeast Asia in general. I think we'll see massive interest in Africa around mobile gaming applications as well. Super underserved market. [40:02] Before we move on to the next segment, I did just want to shout out one of my favorite games that is building a mobile MMORPG called Treeverse, which they just kind of released their gameplay trailer. It looks really good. It's built by a, I don't want to call him an influencer because he's so much more than that, but his name is Loopify. He's an anon on the internet, big on crypto Twitter and the Web3 Gaming Development Endless Clouds or Game Development Studio Endless Clouds.

[40:32] Um, [40:33] And they've done since their release over $80 million in volume. And it's just one of my fave projects. So I'm excited to see that. [40:46] For the under the radar segment, [40:49] When I was thinking about who I should put in here, who I would love to talk to Tasha about, [40:56] It had to be Ripcash. They're a crypto artist who just released their new drop as part of their Data Swamp collection called Smile. It's an edition of 32. And their work is some of like... [41:10] my favorite, like that I've seen in a really, really long time. This particular piece, it's very bold, it's graphic, it's pixelated. It has black and fluorescent green as the two dominant colorways. And it features a classic looking surveillance camera that says, smile, you're on camera with an asymmetrical smiley face. And that asymmetrical face, it's just like the details that Ripcash puts in. [41:36] But what immediately struck me about this work and really all their work was, [41:42] is that their point of view is so clear. They're so mature in their visual language and their thought process that, [41:48] that they basically have a trademark image already. And that's really big considering that they released their first works less than two years ago. [41:58] For me, when I talk about this bold graphic style, I'm going to do a little bit of an art history moment. I think of Barbara Kruger right away. She is most known for her collage style that consists of black and white photographs. If you have been to a modern art museum, you have for sure seen her works. These collages are often overlaid with

[42:18] declarative captions stated in her very iconic font, Futura Bold Oblique. [42:23] And if you haven't seen her work, you have certainly seen the Supreme logo. If you go to obviously any NFT conference, you will see many of the NFT boys wearing Supreme hoodies, hats, whatever it is. And that Supreme logo, they actually ripped it. [42:53] know, I know Tasha, you looked into their work too. I'm wondering what you think of it. If you feel the same way, what are your thoughts? [43:02] Yeah, I had actually never heard of Ripcash before you introduced them to me. And then I went, [43:08] in a deep dive rabbit hole to learn more about their work. [43:12] And [43:14] I guess if we're talking about visual references, Blake and I share a similar interest in art history. This work was really reminding me of Durer. So Durer is a print artist. [43:27] And there's something about the graphic quality of it that I felt, well, digital artwork reminded me of some of Durer's like woodblock prints, things like that. I was thinking about Lichtenstein because there's something that feels very almost like commercial. [43:47] But...

[43:48] It seems as so this artist is really plugged into the, [43:52] just like [43:54] the art historical canon and contemporary NFT art [43:59] And as a new, I guess, fan of RIPCASH, it was easy for me to see some of the references, which I thought was really cool. [44:07] Yeah, and I mean, I love that you're bringing up Durr. I mean, music to my ears. For those of you who don't know, he's a 16th century, primarily worked in the 16th century German artist, kind of. [44:19] really known as the primary kind of [44:22] leader of the German Renaissance at that time. He was often in conversation with a lot of the artists in the Italian Renaissance during that time as well. And just a fun fact is he was also the first artist to actually trademark his image. That's a whole other art historical deep dive, but he's brilliant. I loved her. I've written much about him. So I love that you brought him up. Also, Lichtenstein, I think bringing up that commerciality, [44:47] is really interesting. And I, and I totally see where you're going with that. What I also wanted to bring up about his work is it's entirely on chain and the [45:00] I think that's very, very important. First of all, you know, why is NFT art such a game changer when it's on-chain? The real difference between on-chain and off-chain art, and really just [45:10] on-chain and off-chain NFTs in general is the nature of their smart contracts, right? So on-chain art,

[45:18] has built in smart contracts and off chain art, um, or NFTs interchangeable in this example, have smart contracts for the sole purpose of linking people to the storage location of their digital art or digital image. So with on chain art, the data is stored all in the contract versus on an off chain art, you're being pointed somewhere where the data is actually stored. Um, that's when you go to the contract, you're actually pointed elsewhere. Now, the, [45:45] This way of making art is incredibly censorship resistant. Once it's minted, this method creates very few dependencies. You don't have to rely on storage. And so because Ripcash deals so much with questions of surveillance, of the network state to me and the consequences of that, it's a lot of people who are going to be able to do that. [46:08] you know, the way that they're making the artwork and constructing it, that to me is the real excitement. When they're actually using the medium of smart contracts, this new form of creation to reinforce ideas of value, which is so consistent. And to me, when form and content, when medium and content reflect each other, I'm like, oh, that is the most gorgeous form of art [46:38] So that made me really excited to also learn that they're producing their work on Shane. I think that's next level in terms of... And I just to say his...

[46:49] And for their last piece, it was a super tight allow list as you were able to only get on this 32 list through very certain means. It was priced aptly at 0.69, 420, of course, for the Smile Edition. And there was a couple of ways you could get on the allow list. [47:19] Smile and there were over 1,600 entries. [47:24] And he gave away 30 allow list spots. And the last two then were up for auctions. So people could bid through OpenSea. And the highest bidders were rewarded with the, you know, two last editions of the smile piece. And you can make blanket bids on a collection on OpenSea. So any of those 30 people who had already owned this Ripcash smile piece... [47:44] the work they own was also getting bid on. And the bids went up to five ETH for each of these up for grads grab pieces. But how OpenSea works, if you had already minted a piece for that 0.7 ETH, you were lucky enough to get on that allow list. You could have accepted a five ETH bid and you could have paid 0.7 ETH a couple hours ago and then accepted an almost 10 extra money a couple hours later. [48:09] and not a single person accepted. So the collector base is incredibly strong, X copy, [48:17] Jake the D-Gen, Snowfro actually traded a Chromie Squiggle for one of Ripcash's pieces. So the collector base is super, super tight. That's an elite group.

[48:28] So I'm really excited to follow their work and what they're up to. And I thought everyone should know about them because they're doing really interesting, thought-provoking work. [48:38] So with that being said, Pasha, it's been like beyond a pleasure. I think the kind of frameworks and theories and ideas that you brought incredibly valuable. I think they're going to help people really think through and position their frameworks in unique ways to engage with the technology we're seeing every day. I loved how you named different academic theories. I think that's so, so helpful. And I just love this episode. I learned so much. [49:08] Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been such a pleasure. I truly love the Boys Club community. It was one of the things that made me feel most welcome, I guess, in my crypto education journey. And obviously, I adore the way that Blake thinks about the world. [49:28] I'm super happy to be here and thank you for listening.